Modern Day Pharisees

[00:00:02] Speaker A: What would the Pharisee look like today? [00:00:05] Speaker B: Put in today's time, they'd be in church every Sunday. Not that there's anything wrong with that. [00:00:10] Speaker A: They wouldn't be in another religion. [00:00:11] Speaker B: I think they'd be Protestant. [00:00:13] Speaker A: Well, the Pharisees weren't really born yet. [00:00:15] Speaker B: Yeah, but I mean, some of them are. I mean, I'll put them as a. As a. Involved in a religion, but it wouldn't be Buddhism or anything like that. [00:00:23] Speaker A: It'd be with a Christian name. [00:00:26] Speaker B: I would put them as basically following traditions rather than the scriptures. I think they would be very judgmental of everybody looking down on them. I think that they would turn an eye to their own sin while looking at yours with both and pointing out how yours is so grossly wrong. I'm not interested in that because I already know how to ski. I don't want to take that up and cause that. How do you hurt yourself? The falls that hurt. I ain't never been hurt skiing. I've been hurt falling. [00:01:04] Speaker C: Well, we don't have a sermon to talk about this week because you didn't preach it well. And Doug. [00:01:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:09] Speaker C: The live stream cut out. I'm gonna. [00:01:11] Speaker B: I think. I think they got it back out. [00:01:13] Speaker C: Did they get it fixed? [00:01:14] Speaker A: Okay. [00:01:14] Speaker C: I hadn't got a chance to go back. [00:01:15] Speaker B: About halfway through, they said it. [00:01:16] Speaker A: It. [00:01:17] Speaker B: I don't know if the Internet went out or what, but it was odd. [00:01:20] Speaker C: Did I have the whole sermon up to find out? [00:01:22] Speaker B: That's what they said. Yes. [00:01:23] Speaker C: Okay. I need to go catch the rest of it. I was enjoying it. I got about halfway through. Probably. [00:01:28] Speaker B: Doug does a good job. [00:01:29] Speaker A: He really does. [00:01:30] Speaker C: Yeah, it was. We were. We were enjoying. We had gone up to mom and dad's for. We had something. Oh, I had monster trucks with Christian Saturday night, Greensboro. [00:01:41] Speaker A: Greensboro. [00:01:42] Speaker C: We had a real good time. And at the very end, they had the best two waiting for last, and both of them went about 10 seconds and broke no on the freestyle, so. Freestyle? Yeah, they was doing the freestyle and they both just came out and did like their initial. [00:01:57] Speaker B: Was it in Greensboro calls in? [00:01:58] Speaker C: Uh, yeah. [00:01:59] Speaker A: They don't still have. [00:02:00] Speaker B: I just wonder they can get up speed in that thing. [00:02:02] Speaker C: It was small. Yeah. They didn't have a whole lot of room. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Spotlight in Lenovo Center. It's not like they get up some high speed, but now those motorcycles can about touch the scoreboard. Yeah. That was exciting. [00:02:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Do they have still him up at the fairgrounds too? [00:02:16] Speaker B: What, monster trucks? [00:02:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:17] Speaker B: Well, they haven't had the Lenovo Center. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:20] Speaker B: And they usually come by once a year. It's fun. I, I know it's, it's loud but man, those motorcycle guys, they hit them jumps and I swung in there as high as the scoreboard. [00:02:30] Speaker C: Yeah, that was pretty cool. Dad's a big motorcycle guy, so he loves but crazy. That was cool. But then we were driving back. I had to get back Sunday. Reese had team pictures for cheer or something like that. So I had to get her back to Heather's, get here. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Who's she cheering with? Cheer what? [00:02:43] Speaker C: Showtime in Holly Springs. [00:02:44] Speaker B: Showtime. [00:02:45] Speaker C: Yeah. So she's got a competition this week back in greens. So I'll be back there again. [00:02:50] Speaker B: This man, those competitions, well, all day. [00:02:53] Speaker C: Events usually this one will be better because she goes on at like 12:23. [00:02:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:02:58] Speaker C: Random time. [00:02:58] Speaker B: No, they got it down to it. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:00] Speaker C: And then the awards are at 105. The last one was here in Raleigh. She performed at like 9 o' clock. But the awards weren't until 11:30. So you had to just sit there. Believe me, two and a half hours. I've never been there and done that. Man, I was ready to get out of there. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Cheering and gymnastics were all day events. [00:03:18] Speaker C: No, no sermon notes to get into. Mama did send me something this morning. Welcome to the other 167. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:24] Speaker C: Mom sent me a video this morning. It's pretty cool. I don't know if it's a true story or not or if it was just a, you know, analogy, but I saw a video a while back. Pilots in. One of the most dangerous things for pilots is getting trapped in weather. If you're not paying attention, you get stuck in the clouds and you can't see where you're going. You don't know up from down, left from right, whatever. And I just seen a video the other day of a young, say kid, but somebody in early 20s who had had a crash in that situation. And the video that mom sent me was the opposite. It was a story of, as the story goes, a pastor invited two guys on his plane and then gets up into the plane into the clouds and he passes out. And the other two who don't know how to fly had to figure out how to fly through the storm. And the air traffic controller was coaching them through. You know what, don't, don't pay attention to your instruments. Don't listen to other people. Listen just to. And at the end the, you know, the analogy is that that's, that's us and God just, you know, don't pay attention to the storms. Don't pay attention to the other voices. Just listen to him. Because that's exactly. I don't know if that was a real story or. But the story of a kid who. Who died. That was definitely a true story. And that's exactly what he did wrong. He was going off of his own instincts. He was saying, I feel like I'm this. I feel like I'm going down. And he would pull up and the controller would say, I've got you on radio. You're not going down. You're steady 3,000ft, heading northeast. And he says, no, I'm spinning to the south and I'm falling out of the skies. No, you're not. You're actually going up. I need you to trust your. [00:04:53] Speaker B: Yeah, you trust your guidance and trust your instruments. [00:04:57] Speaker A: I was. I flew a couple of times with a guy, and it's amazing how you can get confused up there. [00:05:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:05] Speaker A: I thought, I'm going up and I'm going straight down. Yes. He looked at me. Why are you going straight down? So I'm not. I'm going up. But I don't know how that happens. But you can keep. [00:05:12] Speaker C: The term is spatial disorientation or something like that. I guess when you don't have the ground as a reference, that's it. [00:05:18] Speaker B: I think that's part of it. [00:05:19] Speaker C: Especially in the clouds. Because in the clouds you can't even see the ground. [00:05:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:22] Speaker A: This was a sunny day, you know, but that's like. [00:05:25] Speaker B: You'd know if you were going down if you. [00:05:26] Speaker A: If you were. Yeah, I know. That's what it's like. [00:05:28] Speaker B: I mean, it must have been like a gradual down. [00:05:31] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:32] Speaker C: You, front of you. [00:05:34] Speaker A: Well, I was high. [00:05:38] Speaker B: It's kind of a. Not of. [00:05:41] Speaker A: But as I looked at my instrument. Yeah, I was going straight down, but not. I wasn't going. [00:05:46] Speaker C: Yeah, it wasn't vertical, not nose down. [00:05:47] Speaker A: But it was a. It was probably a 45. [00:05:50] Speaker C: I was like, if it's a nose dive, then that puts the ground right in front of you. [00:05:53] Speaker A: You gotta. [00:05:54] Speaker B: You ought to see that at night. You might not be able to if. [00:05:57] Speaker A: You'Re nervous, but that's what happened. Place. JFK Jr. Yeah, he was a. Which one died skiing that was not Jack, Ken, John Kennedy, but Joe Kennedy's son. Our sons are grand on his side of family. Oh, JFK Jr. Was. Was John Kennedy's son that killed him. [00:06:18] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:19] Speaker B: One of them died. Skin. [00:06:21] Speaker A: Yes. And it might have been on the. Ted. Is either Ted or what I say. [00:06:28] Speaker B: Roberts, Robert. [00:06:29] Speaker A: Yeah, Well, I said Joe Kennedy. I meant Robert Kennedy. [00:06:32] Speaker C: Okay, I said Joe. I don't know who Joe is, but Joe's the father. Gotcha. [00:06:37] Speaker A: The oldest one was Joe Kennedy too, but he got killed in World War II. Gotcha. He was a fighter. A fighter's pilot. [00:06:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:47] Speaker A: But John, then Robert, then Edward. [00:06:51] Speaker C: Yeah, they haven't had the best. [00:06:52] Speaker B: Impressed. I'm impressed that you know Camelot there. [00:06:56] Speaker A: I know Camelot, Ethel and yeah, here you go. But. [00:07:02] Speaker C: But I thought that was a good analogy for what? The way we get, especially the more stressful the situation, the more we tend to want to rely on our. [00:07:10] Speaker B: We rely on our own strength and our own instinct and what we've gone through before. And yeah, you. That's what that'. When you tend to get more in more trouble too. [00:07:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:21] Speaker B: And it doesn't take long to get off a course that. Just a little bit. And that's what I've always been amazed of. Just a little bit of veering off and in 20 minutes you are way over here. When you should be on this flight path, it doesn't take hardly anything at all. Just a few minor decisions. A few minor. [00:07:40] Speaker A: Really. [00:07:40] Speaker B: I don't call them mistakes because you feel like, okay, this is going, but yeah, you're operating in your own accord and next thing you know you're off path. Miles. [00:07:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:07:50] Speaker B: With. And then, you know, I always tell people, took you, if you got. If you got 15 miles off course, guess what, you got 15 miles or more to get back on course. [00:08:00] Speaker C: And the usual longer you stay off course, the further you go to course. Correct. That's right. [00:08:04] Speaker B: That's exactly right. [00:08:05] Speaker C: It's tough sometimes because sometimes even in our best efforts we make mistakes and we don't, you know, we misread situations. And especially in high intensity situation when things are not. It's easier to. I think, I believe it's easier to make good decisions when things are calm and going. Okay, sometimes you can get a little lazy and you can make some mistakes in those. But I think sometimes when the heat gets on, that's when you really can. Can mess up and. And especially try to take control of a situation again. I think that's one. [00:08:38] Speaker B: I think you're right a lot of times. [00:08:39] Speaker A: I mean, that's what the scammers use. Always in a hurry. Do it now, can't wait till tomorrow, don't call nobody. You gotta do it now. And it gets people where they can't think. [00:08:52] Speaker C: Well, that's something. You know, me and you talked about something a couple weeks ago that I'm dealing with here lately. And that's something that. It's personal, it's high stakes, I guess some of that stuff, you know, the habits that you should be in, you know, the way you should handle situations, and you probably would handle things that way 99% of the time. But in that one situation that gets personal enough or that one situation where the stakes get high enough, you sort of start to abandon your playbook and go to what's natural. [00:09:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:21] Speaker C: Sometimes and where it can really mess some things up. I've been trying real hard not to, to, to check myself on that a little bit and make sure that I'm, you know, try not to do that. But I'm still doing some, you know, but the harder things get or the, the more important they are, I guess maybe is a way. But the higher the stakes is the best way I can say it. [00:09:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think that's it. Or the more it's at risk or the more that, you know what's at. [00:09:44] Speaker C: Stake here, the more that happens, the more we tend to take the wheel back and, and let's be honest, it. [00:09:49] Speaker B: Involves your children, if it involves your income or your livelihood, if it involves your house or something along that matter. Yeah, it's going to get real quick, real fast and real personal that. Okay, now it really begins to be, you know, there's something about when we're trying to save our backside, we'll do some pretty brazen slash foolish things thinking, oh, I got to do this. [00:10:15] Speaker C: Yeah, one of the. So I've been reading in John 8 lately. I had a question for you on that one. So I didn't realize, first of all that the adulterous woman is sort of an asterisk in the Bible. [00:10:29] Speaker A: Could, could be good. [00:10:30] Speaker C: Could or could not have been actually written by, by John. It may have been added in later. So I was just. I've done a little bit of homework on it, I guess, but what's the story behind that? Because I, I just assumed it was a normal story like some of the. [00:10:42] Speaker B: Other, the other manuscripts doesn't have it. That's usually what it is. And then it was added or could have been added later by a scribe or somebody else or who knows how it got added. But some of the earlier manuscripts may not have it. And so most of the time when you go to a. Depending on what Bible you have, it'll have a bracket and just let you know that this could have been added later. It could have been added by a scribe. First time we see it is, and it'll have a date. But that's usually the reason being. I hate that. I mean, like I said, it doesn't affect anything other than it's one of the most beautiful stories of Christ and grace. [00:11:23] Speaker A: Well, it sounds like him anyway. [00:11:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:25] Speaker A: You see, I mean, it's not anything new. It sounds. That's what Jesus would have did anyway. [00:11:29] Speaker C: Yes. If it's his personality. One of the explanations that I heard is that it could have been an oral tradition that was passed down and. [00:11:38] Speaker B: Then a scribe inserted. [00:11:39] Speaker A: That's where I would go. [00:11:41] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, it certainly doesn't contradict anything else that. That he ever said. It goes right in line with the way he would. It's just such a famous example. It's one of the very. I mean, he was without sin. Cast. The first song is one of the probably best known Bible verses. And I had no clue until I read the Cliff Notes here in the MacArthur Bible that, oh, there's actually some debate as to it. And there's some. It's in people that say it shouldn't be in there because it was original. So that can be. [00:12:06] Speaker A: And it skipped around in John, too. I believe it. Some have it in Luke manuscript. [00:12:12] Speaker C: I've heard that. [00:12:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:13] Speaker C: And. But if you read it. And I never paid attention to this, but like chapter seven, verse 52 and verse eight or chapter eight, verse 13, like, they go together. You can tell it was inserted in. In. In that. Or it sounds like it was inserted there. Are you back to John this coming week? [00:12:29] Speaker B: Yes, we are. We're back in John. [00:12:31] Speaker A: So your Bible does not skip over that. [00:12:33] Speaker B: No, mine's got it in there. [00:12:35] Speaker A: I think the NIV actually excludes it or. [00:12:37] Speaker B: I'm not sure about that, but I know, I know the nasb, it double brackets. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:12:43] Speaker B: And later manuscripts add the adult. Add the story numbering as John 7:53 through 8, 11. But. But yeah, we're back in John this week and we're looking at John six. [00:12:55] Speaker A: All right. [00:12:56] Speaker B: What you gonna add to John? [00:12:58] Speaker A: I want you to go first, then to it. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Thank you, John. [00:13:02] Speaker A: You might not miss. You might not get everything. [00:13:04] Speaker B: It's a lot of great stuff. [00:13:05] Speaker C: You got it. Can't correct you if you don't. [00:13:07] Speaker B: Feeding of the five thousand. And the people are, you know, looking for Jesus. He pulls away. And then he sends his disciples across the water, across the Sea of Galilee. And of course, he walks out to them. The people are looking for Jesus. They see the disciples are gone. They're trying to find him. They go across the sea. And he's there, too. And they're like, well, when did you get here? You stayed here while we. When your disciples left. And, you know, Jesus doesn't tell them, well, I took the express or, you know, I walked across the water. I'm sure he could have. There'd have been more believers. I mean, you already fed 5,000. They're already looking for it. But here's the thing. They were looking for the wrong thing. They were looking for, hey, give us this bread, feed us again. I mean, they're really looking for a welfare state. They really are. If you stop and think about it, there's a lot of discontentment in the people. I mean, number one is to be sure they want a different ruler, because Rome is no kind of ruler form. They're discontent in the fact of, hey, give us this bread so we can have it. I don't have to work, because, golly, that's the worst thing that's happening, to work, that kind of thing. And so you see a lot of discontentment. And I think what Jesus is saying is, you'll find your satisfaction, you'll find your purpose. You'll find what your soul is longing for in me. Not the bread I give you, not the stuff I give you in me. And I think what the Lord's really kind of guided me towards is man. Is he your treasure? Is he what you are longing for? Because he will be, and he is. But is he for you? Are you seeking the treasure? [00:14:46] Speaker C: I think so many times we look for what I think we talked about this last week, maybe the last time, but we look at what can God do for us instead of. It's not even what we can do for him, but it's just knowing and honoring what he is, just appreciating what he is. [00:15:04] Speaker B: Getting a good. I mean, that's. That's so important to have that right view of God. [00:15:09] Speaker C: One of the things jumping ahead to John 8, but one of the things I'd highlighted in there that I just. There's a lot of things in John 8 that are. First of all, that John 8, and for listeners, don't get confused, that we're jumping ahead to eight from six, but in eight. [00:15:22] Speaker A: That's a big jump. [00:15:23] Speaker C: I mean, I tried to wait on you and John over Christmas. I finally got. I finally decided to go ahead and read ahead. We were taking too long. 8, 15 was one I had highlighted. You judge according to the flesh. I'm not judging anyone, but even if I do judge, my judgment is true for I'm not alone in it, but I. And the Father who sent me. But that's another thing. I mean there's several places that. Where Jesus says he didn't come to judge the world. And there's another verse, I don't know which one it is. But he who's. He who I think is John 3:18, maybe he who doesn't believe in me is judged already. [00:15:55] Speaker B: That's right. He's condemned already. [00:15:57] Speaker C: Right. [00:15:57] Speaker B: The world's already condemned. He doesn't have to condemn it. [00:15:59] Speaker C: Jesus didn't come to judge. We kind of judged ourselves in our sin. We are judged in our sins and we are, we're guilty. [00:16:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:07] Speaker C: In that's in that sense. [00:16:08] Speaker B: And our judgment, sorry, been passed. [00:16:10] Speaker C: The question do we want to accept the punishment or do we want to accept Christ? That's what it comes down to. So I think that's. And there's so many things in that particular chapter. If you're. I don't know. The first time I read it, I guess I didn't, I didn't catch the con. How contentious. There's a lot of subtle little jabs in the, in that they make back and forth with one another where you know, they say he's a Samaritan. [00:16:34] Speaker B: Especially John 8. John 8. John 8 is really a. Well, there's all kinds of things going on. As you read John. It's not like one over the other, but. But John 8:58 is really one of the. I dare say, I think that is one of the times that, okay, the die has been cast. The leaders are now going after him full force. I think they were already starting. But John 8:58, when he said before Abraham was I am. That was him saying, no, I was around before Abraham was, oh, and by the way, I am. That goes to Exodus 3, when God reveals himself as Yahweh, as being know I am who I am to Moses. So that's the covenant name of God. That, that he knew exactly what he was saying. [00:17:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:26] Speaker B: And you can tell by the leaders reaction, they knew exactly what he was saying because they began to pick up stones saying whoa, you, you just made yourself out to be God. [00:17:36] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's the only thing that they could think of to they, they could find to accuse him of, was saying he was, was God. They tried so hard to get him on other sins. [00:17:47] Speaker B: People lying on the stand when they were having a trial. [00:17:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:52] Speaker B: And Bible even says, and, and the two witnesses couldn't even agree. [00:17:55] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:56] Speaker B: You know, no, he said this, he said that they didn't even agree. [00:17:59] Speaker C: But the only thing that they could find to was was blasphemy, which obviously it wasn't a sin because it was true. So they had to work pretty hard to try to find any fault anymore. And they still hated him basically just because, I guess, I don't know, he wasn't what they wanted him to be. [00:18:16] Speaker B: Or he was beginning to crash their style. He was, he was basically, I dare say he had put a lot of questioning of their authority. Where the people are now, like, well, who are they? They're not some hot shots. Because trooping on the, the people were fearful of the Pharisees because they had the right to cast you out of the synagogue or out of the temple or whatever they were worshiping in was synag dug outside or temple. They had the right and the authority to cast you out. So they were already fearful of the Pharisees. Oh, and they are something special. They are the religious leaders. And here comes some carpenter's son who is very astute and very smart about the law that they can't stop and. [00:19:03] Speaker A: He'S stumping them and he does miracles. [00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And it just, I think for them it was we got to get rid of this guy. [00:19:11] Speaker A: Put a Pharisee. What would a Pharisee look like today? Put in today's time. [00:19:17] Speaker B: A great question. I, I would, I, I don't, I think it would be one that. Well, I mean if you're really going, let's, let's do all the way in. They'd be in church every Sunday. [00:19:29] Speaker A: Okay. [00:19:29] Speaker B: Not that there's anything wrong with that. [00:19:31] Speaker A: They wouldn't be in another religion like Buddhism or. [00:19:34] Speaker B: No, no, I, I, I believe they would. Well, I believe they'd either be good Jews or born again Christians or if they are born again, I think they'd be Protestant. [00:19:46] Speaker A: Well, the Pharisees weren't really born again. [00:19:48] Speaker B: Yeah, but I mean some of them were, I mean put them as a, as a, involved in a religion, but it wouldn't be Buddhism or anything like that. [00:19:57] Speaker A: Be with the Christian name. [00:19:58] Speaker C: Why do you say Protestant instead of Catholic? Well, I think there could be self righteous. I think there are some qualities of Pharisees that could be Catholic. [00:20:07] Speaker B: Well, and very much so. [00:20:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:20:09] Speaker A: What I meant was he's talking about our religion. [00:20:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm just talking about, just. I, I would, I would put them in church and, and so I'd put them in church. I would, I would put them as basically following traditions rather than the scriptures. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Would this be Jehovah Witness? Or would this be Mormons? Or would this be a Baptist church? [00:20:32] Speaker B: No, I put them more towards the Baptist. [00:20:34] Speaker A: Okay. [00:20:34] Speaker B: And I'm a Baptist, so, I mean, I think they would be very judgmental of everybody looking down on them. I think that they would turn an eye to their own sin while looking at yours with both and pointing out how yours is so grossly wrong about. [00:20:51] Speaker A: Seeing their own sin. [00:20:53] Speaker C: Sure. [00:20:54] Speaker B: I think that you would have someone that. Honestly, I could see that they would give. Give money and they'd want to make sure everybody knew they gave money. I mean, I'm just going by what Pharisees did in this, in their time. Just fast forward. It isn't that much different. I mean, it's a. They just aren't following the Mosaic Law, and they may be to some degree, but. But it becomes a better than you. It becomes works. Well, that's what the hypocrites were all about, was my works have got to outshine yours. [00:21:27] Speaker A: I mean, I'm just asking. I want to know. [00:21:28] Speaker B: No, I mean, I think we. We've kind of talked a lot. Not, Not. Not recently, but we talked in the very beginning a lot about legalism and legalism. And so basically, I would count a Pharisee as a legalist. So whatever a legalist looks like, that's what I would. Would put them as. Does that make sense or would you add. [00:21:50] Speaker A: No, that makes sense. Give me some names. But no, you. Yeah, it's blind it right up to the names. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Okay. [00:21:58] Speaker A: The individual names. [00:22:00] Speaker B: And I think it's one of. And let's be honest, we can all be pharisaical at times. We can all be judgmental of others. We can all be thinking we're better than other people. We can all be. Well, at least don't do that. [00:22:14] Speaker A: And we do. [00:22:15] Speaker B: And that really is. Think about it. That's what the Pharisees did. [00:22:18] Speaker A: And I think about what the Pharisees did. And I might be guilty on a lot of that too. Not the everyday thing, but, you know, here and there. Yeah, I thought, you know, I was better than someone else or yeah, I. [00:22:30] Speaker B: Got this going on. [00:22:31] Speaker A: Or. [00:22:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, we can. [00:22:33] Speaker A: We all have been Pharisees at some. [00:22:35] Speaker B: Point, and I think a Pharisee is going to be very much going through the motions, wanting to make sure everybody sees them versus I don't care about getting credit for this or not. Don't care if anybody knows I did this. I mean, I don't. I'm not here to, you know, get applause from other people. A Pharisee is going to love the praise of men rather than pleasing them. [00:22:58] Speaker A: Well, now, let me just ask you a question. And this is going back to the Sermon on the Mount. I don't. And we're going to talk about fasting here for a second. They want. When Jesus is talking about fasting, you know, they want people to see their face and all that. And a lot of people have taken that too extreme to where I can't tell anybody that I'm fasting. I don't think that. I do not think that's wrong to tell somebody that you're fasting. Your family's gonna see it in the first place real quick, right? Yeah. What are you gonna do, lie to them? I think it. It has to do with a see me fasting, a pride thing. [00:23:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, now that it's wrong, 99 of the Pharisees were for show. [00:23:39] Speaker A: Yes. And I would tell you, Hamilton, I come to you, I'm going to fast because I want to see something done. [00:23:46] Speaker B: And I want you to pray while. Yes. [00:23:48] Speaker A: There's nothing wrong with me telling you that. [00:23:50] Speaker B: Now, if you go before, you know, hey, everybody, I want y' all to think about I'm on fast because I'm. I'm just that spiritual. [00:23:57] Speaker A: But I think a lot of people have gotten that wrong for praying, for giving. [00:24:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:02] Speaker A: And, yeah, I don't mind if somebody know that I gave this, but I'm not going to go out there and say, hey, look. Look at me. Yeah, I can do it. [00:24:09] Speaker B: I don't. I don't want it. I don't want it. [00:24:11] Speaker A: I don't want it. Yeah. Yeah. So there's nothing wrong with somebody knowing that you gave this or that. And there's nothing wrong with you telling them. It's just your motives. Yeah. [00:24:24] Speaker B: Well, I think that's it, too. That's where a lot of it goes. It's for show and it's for motive. And it also goes back to gone. You get. [00:24:33] Speaker A: You. You. [00:24:36] Speaker B: Yes, I did this, God. And you really ought to be proud of me. [00:24:39] Speaker A: Right? [00:24:40] Speaker B: You really ought to be just blown away. Because, God, I am just. I'm that much of a superstar on your team. [00:24:46] Speaker A: But this is. This is what we do. Okay? [00:24:48] Speaker C: They. We. [00:24:49] Speaker A: Instead of not telling people, we go all the other. I mean, instead of. We're not supposed to brag about it, and it's. Now we go all the way to the other side where we're not supposed to say anything about it. No, you got to. I mean, you got to tell your. [00:25:05] Speaker C: Wife one Time I was trying to fast and I was, we just go. [00:25:09] Speaker A: All the way to the other end. [00:25:11] Speaker C: Baptist Grove. We used to, used to have like, I think it was one day a week, one day a month that you kind of encourage us all to fast. I remember during that time I was going to, you know, work and everybody's asked me out for lunch and I'm like, to figure out ways to get out. [00:25:23] Speaker B: That's the one day that you ask. [00:25:24] Speaker C: You, like, I'm not hungry to do it because I'm like, I don't want to tell them I'm fasting. I'm not supposed to do that. But then I'm, I mean I'm, I get what you're saying. Like sometimes it's the same way with giving. Sometimes to make sure that we don't brag about it. Sometimes we become so secretive about it that in a weird backhanded way we start to feel self righteous internally because look how good we are that we gave and didn't let anybody know about it. You know, that's a backdoor way to sneak into self righteousness if you're not careful. [00:25:52] Speaker A: I mean, it's not wrong to tell somebody. It's always your motives. It's always that pride thing every time. [00:25:59] Speaker B: And I think, I think, you know, two different things here. Giving and tithing, giving and fasting, well, they're two different, but it's the same. Jesus thought about that. And even you're giving. I'm kind of like, now you're giving to me. Is that is between you and the Lord. I don't want everybody knowing what I gained. I really don't. That's just me now. [00:26:20] Speaker A: I, I don't care. [00:26:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:22] Speaker A: I'm not going to go out there and say, hey, I gave this, it was me. No, but I'm not going to say, hey, I'm the one that gave that. That's why they had that. I'm not going to just make it. It's not an issue to me. [00:26:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:35] Speaker A: If someone asked me, did you give a hundred thousand dollars to the church? I would lie and say, yeah, but no, I mean, I don't have that. But am I going to lie? Yeah, I did. But I did it because, God, I did on my heart. And that's, you know, to, to go with it. So yeah, I'm not going to lie about it. But I'll think, well, and you can. [00:26:57] Speaker B: Always, you can always not answer. [00:26:59] Speaker A: Well, you could do that. But it's not sin to tell them. [00:27:02] Speaker B: No, it's not A sin on how. [00:27:04] Speaker A: You tell them, why you tell them. I think that's. [00:27:06] Speaker B: Well, and. And that's it. It always goes back. I mean, that's what the whole New Testament Jesus is telling us is. It's all about the heart. [00:27:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:27:13] Speaker B: It's not about your external. You know, the people in Micah's day, What is it God wants from us? Do we need to bring a thousand sacrifices? Do I need to offer my first because of my sin that I've committed? Do I need to do these things? And then Micah says, hear, oh, Lord, hear, old man, what the Lord requires of you. And it's not a bunch of empty rituals. And I think that's where the Pharisees did more than anything else was empty rituals to either earn favor with man or try to earn favor with God. And you can't. And earn favor with God. You can earn favor with man. They're fickle. They'll love you one day and hate you the next. [00:27:51] Speaker C: Depends on how. [00:27:52] Speaker A: Yeah, when you run out of money. [00:27:54] Speaker B: Or what you did for them. And so, yeah, that you can try to earn that favor. But no, when it comes to, you know, love, mercy, walk humbly and do justly, that all goes back to an internal job that shows itself on the outside. [00:28:11] Speaker A: And the sin is it starts in your heart long before you tell somebody, you know, long before you say, it was me. It started way back. [00:28:19] Speaker B: Well, it probably started when you wrote check. [00:28:22] Speaker A: Yes, but it was. [00:28:23] Speaker B: Or when you decided, I'm not eating. [00:28:26] Speaker A: It probably started when you decided to write the check. [00:28:29] Speaker B: That's it. [00:28:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I don't think, you know, Jesus talks about that. It's what comes out of your mouth or out of your heart. [00:28:36] Speaker C: What about the flip side of it, though? For a second, we're talking about giving or fasting or whatever for the purpose of. Is it the right motive versus doing it so that we feel like we're earning favor with God? But there's a flip side of that also, where sometimes we might do something just because we feel guilty for not doing it. You know, I mean, like, I'm. I'll be transparent about this. I haven't even tried to fast in about two years, Right. And I'm. It's just not a big thing that I've ever been particularly good at. Or there's been some times I've thought I might want to do it, and I just get busy or don't get, you know, just. I can't assist my mind or whatever. [00:29:14] Speaker A: I don't do it. [00:29:15] Speaker C: So I Might fast out of a sense of obligation. [00:29:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:20] Speaker C: As opposed to. I may not tell anybody about it, it may not be anything about that, but I'm not even. And then when I did the fast a couple of years ago, it was a, it was done out of the right motives. My reason for it wasn't a sense of guilt. It was, hey, I've not done this. And I want to see if this is something that brings me closer to God and I wanted to spend that time with him. But there's doing it to get the praise of others. There's doing it for the right reason and there's doing it because you feel like you have to. And out of a sense of obligation. And I don't know that obviously the right motive is the correct one. But is doing it to avoid guilt any better than doing it to try to get praise of others? [00:29:58] Speaker B: Doing it out of obligation? [00:29:59] Speaker C: Yeah. Is that the, is that just the flip side of legalism? [00:30:01] Speaker B: I think it is. I mean, I, I mean to me it is because again, what, what is it that, that God told Samuel? I look at the heart and where man looks at the outside, God looks at the heart. And so God, God's looking at our heart. Now I would also, you know, just kind of, you know, we, we. The easiest explanation or easiest way to understand that is in about a month we're going to have a holiday. And I don't. That's a made up holiday. And it's in the middle of February. It's so made up that it's kind of like, oh, I think either the chocolate companies or the jewelry companies made it up. It's a made up holiday. But I have to go and buy my wife a present. All right, well, there's a 214, but to put it down. All right, so Valentine's Day, you, you got to go and buy your wife a present. And you buy it and Matthew214 and you buy it and she says, oh, I just love it. Or you buy her some roses and flowers. I just love it. And, and your response is, well, I had to do it. It was my duty. It was as an obligation. That's terrible. [00:31:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:15] Speaker B: You know, she might throw those flowers at you. Yeah. She might beat you with them flowers and you know, eat all the chocolates and hit you with the box or something. But I mean, if you just say, well, I had to do it, it's Valentine's Day, rather than, I'm thinking of you, I love you. I wanted to express my love to you and that's why I think Valentine's Day is the biggest rip off holiday there. [00:31:36] Speaker A: Well, then why don't you not buy your wife anything? [00:31:38] Speaker B: We don't. [00:31:39] Speaker A: Okay? [00:31:40] Speaker B: We don't. [00:31:41] Speaker C: She's. [00:31:42] Speaker B: She's heard my rant and she knows and she believes. She. She really believes. She believes. Same way that who says we got to go out. We'll go out anytime we want to. [00:31:51] Speaker A: Bring the flowers. 3 14. [00:31:53] Speaker B: There you go. Or 4 14. Really show off. [00:31:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:58] Speaker B: All right. [00:31:59] Speaker A: Every 14th. But. [00:32:02] Speaker B: Just cause I don't want somebody telling me I got. [00:32:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:05] Speaker B: And I think it is one of. And trooping on 98% of the people in the world, the married couples, the dating couples, they wouldn't do that on February 14th unless they had to. And so that's why I'm kind of like, you know, show me you love me on one. One. Show me you love me on five. [00:32:24] Speaker C: Five. [00:32:26] Speaker B: That's when you're gonna know. All right, That's. That's what it is. Then again, there's nothing wrong with getting you watch something special. Yes, I get it. But if you're doing it out of obligation rather than. This is my wife. I'm proud of her. I love her. She should know that already. And that's where I told Renee is if you don't know it on. If you don't know it on two one, me getting you some flowers on 214 ain't gonna prove it. [00:32:50] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:32:51] Speaker B: I mean, but then again, I know there's some husbands who don't show that kind of love. And except for that one day and where. Hey, man, if you're, if you're. If your wife knows how special she is to you. Yeah. She's gonna know it on two one just as much she knows on 214. [00:33:07] Speaker C: Yeah, right. [00:33:08] Speaker A: And it's more just something a romantic. [00:33:11] Speaker B: Right. It's a. Hey, I'm. I'm just happy you're my friend. I'm happy. [00:33:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:16] Speaker B: Of all the women in the world, I'm. Man, I. I hit the jackpot. [00:33:21] Speaker A: I mean, I've been married long enough to know that it's. It's a partnership friendship. But more than just buying a gift here and there. See, Renee agreed. [00:33:31] Speaker B: There you go. She's saying, that's her. She's listening in, saying, you better have me a gift. Yeah. My Renee's at work. My Renee won't hear this. So I can say anything. I'm big. Big and bad. Valentine schmallentine. That's what I say. [00:33:50] Speaker C: Well, he touched Renee Back. The kids have been asking me, it seems like this has been a theme lately, the different denominations. Because we talked about the different denominations a couple weeks ago. Yeah, I think so. [00:34:03] Speaker A: We do. [00:34:04] Speaker C: Before Christmas, I think we talked. [00:34:05] Speaker B: We had, we've had some discussions, but. [00:34:07] Speaker A: We'Ve had them over time. But I. [00:34:09] Speaker C: The kids have been asking me this a lot lately when they'll, you know, they'll say so and so goes to a such and such church. Do they go to heaven? And so, and so is it okay to date somebody who's a Catholic or is it okay to do this it. And I finally. It's like, how many times do I going to answer this question? It's not about that, but. [00:34:27] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:27] Speaker C: But there are. And it's. And it's also something that is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I don't want to speak to the Lord, but I have a feeling that the Lord would take a lot of exception to all the debates over which denomination's right and which one's wrong. I mean, there's some doctrine differences and things like that. But I mean, at the end, I told the kids the other day, I think to do to Jesus, there's one faith, it's Christian. Okay? Now, there are some different ways that different denominations. [00:34:58] Speaker B: Not necessarily the Scriptures, but yes, the scriptures in regards to one or two things, three or four things. [00:35:04] Speaker C: And there are things that I think that, you know, you can go to such and such a church. I may not agree with part of their doctrine, but you can still go to heaven. And I may agree with this part of their doctrine. There'll be some Baptists that aren't in heaven. You know what I mean? I mean, it's not, it's. Yeah, I'm trying to get them out of this check boxes mindset that, that we all get, you know, stuck in sometimes. [00:35:27] Speaker B: And, and, and I mean, I hate to say it, I don't want to label somebody. [00:35:34] Speaker A: You're. [00:35:34] Speaker B: You're X, Y and Z, because you are this. [00:35:36] Speaker C: Well, a lot of times I don't know if I've ever told this story or not. I've told it a bunch of times. I don't know if I told y'. [00:35:42] Speaker A: All. [00:35:42] Speaker C: I. Several years, long, long time ago, I was playing golf. This is. I guess this was when I was at Baptist Grove. [00:35:47] Speaker B: Okay. [00:35:47] Speaker C: And some of the guys were playing together on Saturday, I guess, and they asked if I wanted to play in the group on Sunday morning. I said, I can't Tomorrow. I said, I'm going to church. They said, you go to church? I said, yeah, yeah. [00:35:57] Speaker B: Don't you love that? [00:35:58] Speaker C: They said, where are you going? I said, you're a pastor. I said, baptist Grove. They said, you're a Baptist? Yeah, I said, yeah, they said. [00:36:04] Speaker A: I said, why? [00:36:05] Speaker C: He said, well, you drink like a fish and you cuss like a sailor. I didn't think you were a Baptist. So I was like, well, so I didn't say I was a good Baptist, but that is where I go. [00:36:16] Speaker B: I'm on the self improvement plan or the. [00:36:20] Speaker A: I, I'll get you. [00:36:22] Speaker B: But, but that's, that's the, the, the. [00:36:25] Speaker C: Baptists have a stereotype. [00:36:26] Speaker B: Oh, do we have. [00:36:27] Speaker C: You know, especially when it comes to alcohol. But I mean, even language, I think. [00:36:30] Speaker B: But dad, there's a whole lot of things. There's several. [00:36:34] Speaker A: I think the strictest ones I've ever seen is Pentecostal and they're just different. [00:36:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:39] Speaker B: Pentecostal holiness, especially. [00:36:42] Speaker A: I think all of them pretty much. Yeah. No movies, no makeup, long skirts. Yeah. [00:36:49] Speaker C: And I don't know a whole lot. [00:36:50] Speaker A: About saying that's wrong or right. [00:36:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:52] Speaker A: I'm just saying they've taken these separate people way too far, in my opinion. [00:36:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:59] Speaker B: Well, they've created their own form of legalism. But, but then again, you're labeling everybody who. And that's where I'm saying, just because I'm a Baptist doesn't mean I'm this, this, and this, this. First of all, I want to be a Christ follower before I am a Southern Baptist. All right? So I want to be a disciple of Christ. Now, the church I choose to worship in is a Southern Baptist and their theology lines with my theology. So that sounds good to me. Or actually I feel like their theology lines with the scriptures. Let's get that right. And so therefore, that's what I'm going to be. [00:37:33] Speaker C: So I would say this, but I think that I agree with you. I feel the same way you feel about it. I feel like the Baptists get it. You know, when I read through scripture, I feel it aligns the best. I would say that whatever church you're going to, if you don't feel that way about the church you're going to, Methodist, Baptist or otherwise, then you need to find another church. [00:37:53] Speaker B: Why are you going. [00:37:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:54] Speaker C: If you're not going to a church that you feel like aligns with the way you interpret the Bible right then. Or with the truth of the Bible. Yeah. You need to go to a different church. I think that what we talked about several times to the point it's almost probably exhausted by now. But this is probably not the best analogy in the world, but golf analogy, Jim Fury, Tiger Woods, John Daly, Fred Couples and Phil Mickelson, you put their swings right on top of each other, they're going to look very differently in a lot of different ways. And there is absolutely no way I could sweat a club like, like Jim Fury and even make contact with it. No, there's no way I can even get in the position that John Daly gets into the top. [00:38:33] Speaker B: Okay. [00:38:34] Speaker C: But if you look at those five swings, you're going to see a couple of fundamental positions that they all have exactly right, namely at impact, they're going to be at the exact same. [00:38:42] Speaker B: They're all coming down. Right. And. [00:38:44] Speaker C: Yeah, and, and that's true of, you know, me and some of my, my golfing people talk about this a lot, that there's a couple fundamentals that you have to get right. If you're not in that position, then you're a mess. [00:38:54] Speaker B: That's a great. That's a great analogy. [00:38:56] Speaker C: But now how you get there and you don't have to agree with it. I don't have to like the way Fury swing looks. I may not have to be capable of doing what Daly does. But you have. If you're modeling a golf swing, you got to get in certain key positions. To me, you have to have the fundamental doctrines right. And you may agree with one interpretation of this verse or not agree with that one and have some disagreements there. But to me, the. You should feel like the church that you're going to aligns the best with your interpretation and application of Scripture. [00:39:30] Speaker A: But. [00:39:30] Speaker C: And maybe you said they would be Protestant when he asked who the Pharisees would be. [00:39:36] Speaker B: That's one of the reasons I chose that. Well, it's because of. [00:39:39] Speaker C: To me, and I may not be spot on with this, but it seems like a lot of the other. A lot of the maybe friction that the Baptists have with some of the other denominations is we feel that they're a little bit too ritualistic in some ways or too legalist in some ways, which says we're very accepting. We have a very simple. If you accept Christ, yeah, you're. You're in. Basically, it's not. We don't have a whole lot of boxes. You got to check to get in. [00:40:06] Speaker B: That's right. [00:40:07] Speaker C: Where some of the others, you have to be baptized. You have to do this, you have to do that. Now, at the same time, it's Almost like some of these others. It's like they're legalistic in one way but at the same time, as long as you check these boxes, you can pretty much commit any sins you want to on this other side. And these boxes cleansed your sin. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's where we kind of say no. Only one thing cleanses your sin or makes you right with God and therefore you would in some weird way we become more hypocritical when we start to judge other people because we're very accepting. Bring all of your sin, no matter how ugly it was and you can be accepted. But we don't give you the out of. Well, as long as you go to confession, then you can do anything Catholics say you can do anything you want to. As long as you confess it and say your Hail Mary's, you're good. [00:40:54] Speaker B: That's it. [00:40:55] Speaker C: We don't have that legalist out. So we start to judge instead maybe some and we have a great high. [00:41:02] Speaker B: Priest that we can confess to. So I don't need a human priest because once for all the sacrifice has been made. I think also along with that then the discussion of the non negotiables. What is it that is okay? If you disagree with us on here, then we are not fundamentally brothers. And I think that's what sometimes you have to get in place but then it becomes a little bit more of what you're accepting of. So there might be some churches rhyme with the M and rhyme with ethnicism that might be a little bit more accepting and more. You know, Methodists are known for their love, but they're also known for their love almost to the love is love. Yeah. They can carry it to the full acceptance of everything and anything. Where most Baptists are going to say we're not doing that kind of marriage or that I think it'd be safe to say politically conservative or socially conservative is most of your Baptists. And again, don't label us all one thing. But I think that's a fair stroke. [00:42:14] Speaker A: To labels with we do we stereotype. And it's not to say that there are not Christians in the Methodist. No, they just don't follow what I believe the Bible says about certain things. But legalism doesn't send anybody to hell. You're not accepting Christ right as your glory saved it. You can still be legalistic if it doesn't make sense. I mean you can still feel like it's wrong to not word addressed as church or not. Can't come to church without a coat and tie that's okay. That's not the criteria that sometimes we put legalism as the criteria of being. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Or legalism being a, a code of conduct. [00:43:01] Speaker A: Yes, it can be a code of conduct if they want to. I don't even care. But to say that it's wrong and you're going to hell, that's something completely different. Because the Bible does not say anything about that. The only way you go to hell is if not accept Jesus Christ. And everybody has theologies that are. I mean you would think yeah. In this world theology is just all over the place. But I align with what in the Baptist because I believe they are the strongest in the word of God. But I'm not going to say no. I will say certain ones that just aren't the Mormons. Now I already know what you're talking about. Or Jehovah's Witness. That is not the Bible that I read. It's another. It's not a translation, it's a perversion. [00:43:54] Speaker B: Well, any, anytime you start adding. [00:43:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:56] Speaker B: Something different, the word of God, that, that's a telltale sign. [00:44:01] Speaker C: What's the difference between adding something different and. Because I know the Mormons have a different Bible, they've a different book that they've had now they, they believe in the Bible, they just also believe something else kind of goes along with it. [00:44:16] Speaker B: Well, I think they have the King. [00:44:17] Speaker A: James, but the black book book is higher than the King James or the Book of Mormon. [00:44:21] Speaker C: Right, the Book of Mormon. Yeah. [00:44:23] Speaker B: And that. Yeah. And anytime that you put a book either equal to or above the Word of God, Europe just messed up. [00:44:31] Speaker C: And then Jehovah's Witness has rewritten the Bible to fit their doctrine. Yeah. [00:44:36] Speaker A: They wrote the doctrine. Then they, that's add to it. [00:44:41] Speaker C: So those are some, some very clear cut like okay, that, that's, that's across the line. If we're trying to figure out where the line is. That's across it. We can establish that. [00:44:50] Speaker A: That. Okay. [00:44:51] Speaker C: But then you get into some of the other things that even one in particular, I think it's the Mormons that believe that we basically become God on the other side of it, basically. Right. [00:45:02] Speaker B: And again that's coming from their Book of Mormon. That is whacked. [00:45:06] Speaker A: So if they. [00:45:07] Speaker C: That's the, that's the key point is that they're coming, they're bringing that from the Book of Mormon. [00:45:11] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:12] Speaker C: But if you take that out of it and don't be confusing here, make it sound like I agree with that in any way shape or form. But you can take the part of the Bible that says we will. When we will become like Christ. [00:45:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:25] Speaker C: We will be like if Christ is God and we will be like him. I could see how somebody could take that and get to that. I don't think that'd be correct. I don't agree with that, but I can see how somebody could get to that point. [00:45:35] Speaker B: Well, I mean. [00:45:36] Speaker C: And yeah. [00:45:37] Speaker A: Read it all the context. [00:45:38] Speaker B: Well. And I think the thing of it is, is the whole. When you look at the Mormons, your whole Christology is already messed up. What, what they believe about Christ, who he is, what he did, did. You're totally off base. [00:45:51] Speaker C: Right. [00:45:52] Speaker B: So you've missed it from the jump there. So. Yeah. So maybe not salvation. We're going to become gods or like. Well, you don't even have that right. Of who he was. [00:46:02] Speaker A: Right. [00:46:02] Speaker B: And so that. [00:46:04] Speaker C: That they don't believe he was God. [00:46:06] Speaker B: They would say, well, they. He's half brothers with. With Lucifer. [00:46:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Satan are half brothers. [00:46:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. You got to take a look. [00:46:17] Speaker C: I know it's not the bottom. [00:46:18] Speaker B: So when you take a look at their Christology. [00:46:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:20] Speaker B: It's totally not who he is. [00:46:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:23] Speaker B: And. And so, yeah, salvation is. They would be that. Well, they hem and haul about it. But I've always asked, well, is it by grace, through faith, through Christ or not? [00:46:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:33] Speaker B: You know, then why do I do all these works and why do I have to not drink soda? And why do I. I mean really, if you stop think about it, I believe Islam, Mormonism, and let's see, would I add another one in there? They're not too far apart. It granted they don't do Allah. They don't. But as far as what they've done in adding in and having the rules and everything else, it might as well just be a form of legalism. [00:47:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:00] Speaker B: And that's not going to get you. Get you right with God. [00:47:04] Speaker A: That's a perversion. I mean legalism. Perverse. Perverted. [00:47:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:09] Speaker B: That I have to do these rules and follow this and follow that. And then on top of that, maybe that's the going back because if you do any of the studying in that, you'll see, man, they get around the rules a lot of ways. You know, they do various things to try to get around the rules of other things. [00:47:29] Speaker A: One thing is so hard to witness to them and to get them to come to your side or on your side or to believe what the Bible says is because when you run from or when you try and tell them they're wrong, that's persecution and they're taught that's. That will be. That's a heat it up. You want that, you want that brownie point because that's. You're right, you get in heaven. So they want you to criticize them. [00:47:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:59] Speaker A: And I think the easiest thing, and I'm not sure how to go about because I haven't come to my house here and there just to love them. And I've also asked them why do they believe that, being more inquisitive. And a lot of them just don't know because they've been told. [00:48:20] Speaker B: That's it. I've been told. [00:48:22] Speaker A: And I said, well, when do you want to know if it's right? And I've never got an answer on that. [00:48:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I've had, I've had some great conversations with a bunch. [00:48:34] Speaker A: But I want to talk to them because I'm interested in getting them saved, believed, but I'm not interested in condemning them. They're just as lost as anybody else. [00:48:43] Speaker B: Nor am I interested in having a theological debate. No, no, I much rather. Okay, let's get to who Christ is again. That may involve some debate and questioning and answering, but I'm definitely not getting into the weeds of all the various things. [00:48:58] Speaker A: But I want to know more about their religion so I can know what to expect and how to counter that. [00:49:05] Speaker C: It. Sure. [00:49:06] Speaker A: I mean, sure. [00:49:06] Speaker B: I think, I think you need to be familiar with all the religions as far as familiar because not practicing. Not practicing. [00:49:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:15] Speaker B: And I don't want to spend. I'm not going to sit there and waste time. I don't think. Waste time. [00:49:20] Speaker A: You want to understand their viewpoint. [00:49:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:22] Speaker C: It's not a sin to read the Quran just to see what to see the comparisons. [00:49:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:28] Speaker C: It's not a. I've never tried. [00:49:30] Speaker B: It's all over the place. [00:49:31] Speaker A: Really. [00:49:32] Speaker B: It is. I mean you can read it and it's not a sin. At the same time, I'd much rather just give myself to studying the truth. But it doesn't hurt to know, okay, what do they believe? Who is Allah? How am I saved? That's the question that all of them have to answer. And trooping on is, okay, what's your source of authority? That's the scriptures. Where do you stand on that? How am I saved? Because my source of authority should tell me how I'm going to be saved. How you're saved. That's a big one. Because again, my source of authority, salvation and then who's the Savior? Those are the three things I'm going to look At Source Salvation, how I'm saved and who is it that's saving me? If it's somebody else or if it's my works or if it's anybody but Christ. Okay, now we got a problem because there's only one person who's ever done it perfectly and there's only one that I know fulfills the law and can provide a substitution in my place. And so that's what I'm going to be. Those are the three big things. Now there's other things that are involved as well, once you get past those. But those are kind of the non negotiables that I'm not even setting foot in your place if you don't have those three at least nailed down. [00:50:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:50:50] Speaker B: But I correctly. [00:50:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:52] Speaker A: Missionaries do read today on their religion so they'll know how to witness to. Yeah, you have to know it to. Yeah. Be effective, I think. [00:51:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Have you followed or seen the controversy, I guess, with Kirk Cameron and his son in the podcast and that they had done. Have you seen that? [00:51:13] Speaker B: I've known Kirk Cameron. Yeah. So I'm not done. Something different or is he. I don't know. [00:51:19] Speaker C: So here's the story, short story. I have not, in full disclosure, actually watched the original podcast that. To hear what he said. I did watch his reaction video. [00:51:29] Speaker B: So was it one podcast? [00:51:31] Speaker C: He does a podcast with his son. [00:51:33] Speaker B: Right. And stuff for years. [00:51:36] Speaker C: Yeah, he's been doing a lot of stuff. Well, apparently on one episode, which I haven't watched, the two of them kind of go back and forth on the. Basically. I don't forget the terms basically, but the concept of annihilationism, I guess. [00:51:50] Speaker B: Okay. [00:51:51] Speaker C: And is hell an eternally conscious punishment as opposed to. If there's certain verses that can say basically you're destroyed, but that doesn't mean that you're eternally suffering. Technically your punishment is eternal because once you're destroyed, you're no longer exist. But they basically just. And I haven't seen what they said. I saw his reaction to it where he said, I'm catching a lot of grief over this. I'm not saying that I don't believe in hell and I'm not saying this or that. What I'm saying is I'm opening the conversation to say, talk about. And I think you had said in that one that he wanted to create an ongoing thing where you brought on people with opposing views of certain subjects to talk about them respectfully and biblically. But to talk about it because there are certain places that you can take a Verse. And we've talked about this a lot, and I can interpret this way or that way, and we could disagree. But he's called a ton of. Of grief from people saying, you don't believe in hell. You're not really a Christian. You disagree with this. You're not really a Christian. And I did see a pastor do a response to it that said, I believe he's a Christian. I disagree with him on this topic. It's just theology, right? [00:53:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:03] Speaker C: But again, I haven't even seen what Kirk Cameron actually said to say. Did he come out directly inside? Don't believe? Because his reaction made me think that he never really gave a concrete opinion. [00:53:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:16] Speaker C: He just posed the question. But then something else that I heard kind of made it sound like he did say, no, I don't really believe in eternally conscious suffering. [00:53:26] Speaker B: And that really caught on a whole lot of traction, I'd say about 20 years ago, Pastor up in Chicago, Rob Bale, he was kind of the soup du jour for a little bit. Then he went off the rails with basically annihilationism. Is there is no hell just going to be. You just don't. You just cease to exist. And, and that he fell out of graces from that. And I, and I agree with that. That pastor that said, look, I ain't saying he ain't saved. [00:53:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:53:58] Speaker C: Yes. [00:53:58] Speaker B: What I'm saying is he's just got awful theology. [00:54:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:01] Speaker B: And if you go, if you're going to have podcasts and teach, at least try to have good theology. [00:54:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:08] Speaker B: To the best of your ability. [00:54:09] Speaker C: Am I correct in. I think it's revelation. I'm assuming it's revelation that at the end of everything, at the end of the millennium, that Satan will be destroyed. Correct. He's cast into the lake of fire. [00:54:22] Speaker A: Yeah. But he comes back. Yeah. [00:54:24] Speaker C: He comes back from the lake of Fire. [00:54:26] Speaker B: He's cast in the lake of fire. So, I mean, he's not going to be destroyed. [00:54:31] Speaker C: I'm like, after the Lake of Fire. [00:54:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:33] Speaker A: He comes back to deceive for a little while after you talk about the thousand year reign. [00:54:39] Speaker C: Thousand year reign. Does he get to. [00:54:40] Speaker A: He comes out because he's locked up. [00:54:42] Speaker C: For the thousand years. He had his reign before the thousand years in the tribulation. [00:54:48] Speaker A: And if I'm not mistaken, he's let out again for a few more years or whatever. And to deceive other people. Is that right? I'm trying to. Maybe. I'm. I think so. [00:54:59] Speaker C: I thought at the end of the millennium, he was, he was when he was put into the. I could be wrong on that. [00:55:07] Speaker A: That's something I need to check in. Yeah, he's let out for a season. Him. [00:55:12] Speaker C: In any case, in the end he's destroyed. [00:55:14] Speaker B: He is laid out for a season during that time. But go ahead anyway. And I, I don't know that I would say he's destroyed. [00:55:21] Speaker C: That's where I pass into Lake of fire. May not mean that he's destroyed entirely. Right? [00:55:25] Speaker B: I don't take that as being destroyed. [00:55:27] Speaker A: No. [00:55:27] Speaker B: I mean, but it could be. [00:55:29] Speaker A: But I believe he's let out. I don't know if it's right after the millennium. [00:55:33] Speaker B: Revelation 20. Satan's bound then it says, and will reign with him for a thousand years. Satan freed and then doomed. And let's see. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are also. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. [00:55:52] Speaker C: Okay, so no, not destroyed. They are cast into the lake of fire and. [00:55:57] Speaker A: But he's let out for a season, so they're. [00:56:00] Speaker C: Will he still have any power when. Oh, at that point does he have any power in the lake of fire? [00:56:08] Speaker A: I don't think so. [00:56:09] Speaker C: He's just. He's there to suffer, but he doesn't have any. That's like a mainstream conception is the heaven. Basically the devil's in charge of punishment and hell, just like he's in. He's in charge of hell and God's in charge. [00:56:24] Speaker B: And in that regard some people would almost put them as. As equal forces, good and bad. Okay, the devil has hell, God has heaven. [00:56:34] Speaker C: Right. [00:56:34] Speaker B: No, he's going to be tormented in there. He's not ahead of head of it. I mean he just may be the main one tormented. Yeah, but I mean he's not the. [00:56:42] Speaker C: He's the leader in torment received. [00:56:45] Speaker B: I think we give him again, he's powerful, feel deceived. He's a deceiver of the brethren, accuser of the brethren. But we give him way too much power because he's not on equal footing with God. He can't even beat Michael. So. And again, I'm not taking anything away from Michael because Michael's one bad angel. But I don't want to mess with him. But. But he can't even beat Michael. So you know, it's one of those of no, he's not in charge of everything and doing this, that and other. Now unfortunately he does have some authority because of deceiving and Adam and Eve and everything else. But those keys have been taken away too. Yeah. So you know, he has some time right now and he's making the best of it. [00:57:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:34] Speaker B: But I think he knows his time is short and if I can take as many of them with me as I can, he would. [00:57:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:42] Speaker A: 20 verse 20, Revelation 27. I mean 27 to 10 is where I was getting that. So there's just not a lot of information on. That's just the only place that that's there. That's why I said for a little while, because I'm not even sure what's going to happen there. But that's not. I don't believe that's mentioned anywhere else in the Bible. After the thousand year reign, the defeat is same thing. He tries one more time, but I'm not sure exactly what he's trying to. That he will go out and deceive nations again. Gog and Magog. [00:58:18] Speaker B: Well, and that's in Revelation 20. The first mention is the abyss. He's locked into the abyss, sealed in the abyss. Then he's cast into the lake of fire. So I, I take that to be two different things. That's me personally. And again, somebody could argue. Well, it's the same thing. Well, okay. [00:58:36] Speaker A: No, I take it. [00:58:37] Speaker B: Why, why doesn't he use the why? Why didn't he use the same term then? But I think the lake of fire is the last stop, last call, last place he's going to be in. [00:58:50] Speaker C: Yeah. Start forever. [00:58:51] Speaker A: I mean, I don't, I know very little between 27 and 27 to 2010. I'm not sure what's going on. [00:58:59] Speaker B: Go on. We read it and we take a look at it. [00:59:02] Speaker A: All right. [00:59:03] Speaker C: 20 verse 7, Revelation 20. [00:59:05] Speaker B: All right. So when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. That's the abyss. And will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog to gather them together for the war. The number of them is like the sands of the seashore. And they came upon the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints in the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also. And they will be tormented day and night forever. [00:59:40] Speaker A: And that's the final judgment. But that's a lot going on in that verse from seven to. [00:59:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean you got the millennial kingdom ending. [00:59:48] Speaker A: Yes. Will that be people that were born during that time period. Will they be the ones that will be deceived? [01:00:00] Speaker B: That's always been what I have been taught. Again, I think it's one thing that we have to be careful when you're in the Book of Revelation. I want to be careful when we're in the Book of Revelation that, okay, this is going to be this, this, this. [01:00:12] Speaker C: You're right. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not. [01:00:13] Speaker B: Because I'm not exactly sure it's exactly what we always interpreted, but that's the way I've always interpreted that people that are born in the millennial kingdom. Millennial kingdom, basically, and I've always heard it this way, they got to make a choice of, okay, they never, like me, I accepted Christ and they need. [01:00:40] Speaker A: To have a choice. [01:00:41] Speaker B: Right? [01:00:41] Speaker A: Yes. [01:00:42] Speaker B: But now, are they bound and worshiping the king during that millennial kingdom? [01:00:46] Speaker A: That's a lot of. I just tell you, that's a lot of time. I mean. I mean, that's a short ver. A few verses. That might be a lot of time in there. [01:00:56] Speaker B: You got a thousand years. [01:00:57] Speaker A: I mean, after the thousand years I'm talking about, those are when the thousand years are up, then he's let it go again. But I don't know if that's like a couple months or that might be thousand years again. I don't know. [01:01:13] Speaker B: Or a day. [01:01:13] Speaker A: Or a day. But I don't know how you deceive a lot of people in one day. [01:01:17] Speaker B: But I guess he does pretty good at it Now. [01:01:19] Speaker A: Now, I just never heard a sermon on that. [01:01:21] Speaker B: No. Well, not. You know, I. I am praying about it right now that maybe, maybe next fall cranking up, let's do Revelation. Let's go. Let's do it. [01:01:36] Speaker A: You know, I've just never heard a sermon about it. [01:01:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I know, but. No, I really do want to do the Book of Revelation and. But I want to give myself time to really study it. [01:01:46] Speaker A: And not to say this is what's going to happen, this is what could happen. Well, we don't know a lot of things. [01:01:53] Speaker B: I think you know me well enough. My preaching is not going to be, Let me tell y' all what this is. This is this, this, and this. No, what I will do is I'll give you two to three options of what it is, why I believe it's this and how it pans out with the rest of scripture, that chapter 20 there, especially verses 7 through 11. Again, does it impact my salvation? Not really. Am I going to be along for the ride? You Better believe it. And then I'm going to be like, oh, so that's what it meant for a lot of it. Yeah. [01:02:25] Speaker A: And I think a lot of revelation might be written because. And this is the book about really, the book that we realize what heaven really is. [01:02:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:37] Speaker A: And I think that the. [01:02:39] Speaker B: It's got just as many descriptions of heaven as probably any other. [01:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it was. The revelation was to encourage. And I think John says this to encourage the believers that are being persecuted. The end result is chapter 21. This is where you're going to be. [01:02:55] Speaker B: Well, I mean. And that's. What. Is it revealing? It's not the end times. [01:02:59] Speaker A: No, it's the new Jerusalem heaven. [01:03:01] Speaker B: Well, what it is, it's really a revelation of Jesus Christ. It's revealing who he is coming back and what he is going to be and who he is as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, because. And so that's really the revealing, because. [01:03:15] Speaker A: I don't know up to revelation, if heaven is really explained in detail. [01:03:22] Speaker B: Not much. [01:03:23] Speaker A: That's what we really need to get from Revelation is what heaven's going to be like, I feel like. [01:03:27] Speaker C: And what it describes, the new Jerusalem. It comes down from heaven to Jerusalem now or in the same. I mean, is it. And then we create that. Or he creates the new heaven and new earth, so the. The current earth is destroyed and is replaced. Some of that stuff. [01:03:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:45] Speaker C: I was joking with the kids the other day, though. I said, you know, you think about it. He says, I go and prepare a place for you and it's been gone 2,000 years. I said, if you think about it in this way, it's totally a joke. Do not take this seriously. But I said, if you think about it, I said, he created this one in seven days, six days, really. I said, now he's been gone for 2,000 a year working on the second one. [01:04:04] Speaker B: It really is. And. And I think it's one of. And again, I think it's the. The beauty of Revelation promises the. If you, if you go, it actually promises, blessed will be the reader. It promises a blessing that the more that you read it and the more you look at it. But now I'm going to go and tell you, I've read it several times, studied it numerous times, and honestly, when it comes to, okay, this is what this means. Yeah, you can put it on a chart and you can kind of map it out, but at the same time, man, there's a lot of imagery in there that, okay, what exactly are we getting at? And So I don't want someone to feel like, okay, there's only one interpretation of Revelation or that this is what this means. And no, it can't vary because that's. That's what a Pharisee does too, Peter. [01:04:49] Speaker A: I mean, Paul is something good. Because Paul says it. [01:04:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:04:54] Speaker A: He says I can't even compete. I think it was just amazing. I cannot eat it. I don't even have the words to explain. So we knew it was something good. We just don't. [01:05:03] Speaker B: He doesn't spend much time describing it. Jesus does to some degree in his teachings, but even then, usually it's in regards to what it isn't. We're not going to be married. It's going to be this. Hebrews not really describing heaven as much as it does describe our great high priest who's in heaven is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Father. But yeah, heaven is not necessarily. It's in there, don't get me wrong. And it's the hope that we have and a promise, but it really doesn't describe, you know, oh, and there'll be streets of gold. There'll be. Ezekiel probably has more than. Than just about anything else in the New Testament other than Revelation. [01:05:44] Speaker C: Is traits of gold even actually said. [01:05:46] Speaker A: In the Bible, it's paved with gold. Yeah. [01:05:49] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. [01:05:51] Speaker A: But I. [01:05:52] Speaker B: The walls with all the jewels. [01:05:54] Speaker C: I know there's the part that describes all of the different jewels and stuff like that, but I can't remember Crystal. [01:05:58] Speaker B: Sea, there's rainbows around the. The throne. I mean, there's all kinds of. Of great. [01:06:04] Speaker C: Of imagery. Yeah. I couldn't remember if. If streets of gold was literally part of that description or if that was something that had been added somewhere along the way. Because it does get into a lot of the descriptions. [01:06:14] Speaker A: Here's what I was thinking of the other day because my mother passed away. Said she is not my mother anymore. She was my mother, but she's a sister now. [01:06:25] Speaker B: Now she was assistant for that though, technically. [01:06:28] Speaker A: But yeah, but I mean earthly, she was my mother. [01:06:30] Speaker B: Right. Biologically, yeah. But spiritually she was your sister, but. [01:06:34] Speaker A: In heaven she's my sister and on. [01:06:37] Speaker B: Earth she was your sister. [01:06:38] Speaker A: Yeah, but you. But definitely in heaven because there's no marriage or. [01:06:43] Speaker B: And definitely on earth. [01:06:44] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:06:46] Speaker A: But I'm just saying. [01:06:47] Speaker C: I'm saying she's starting to turn into who's on first off a deal. [01:06:50] Speaker A: My point was she's not going to be my mother. Heaven. [01:06:52] Speaker B: Right. [01:06:53] Speaker A: That's. That was my. [01:06:55] Speaker B: And I wonder about that, you know. [01:06:56] Speaker A: That'S like, man, I wonder about that. [01:06:59] Speaker B: I, I wonder if we'll know that. That was my mama. [01:07:03] Speaker A: When Jesus was talking about marriage, he said there's no marriage, but didn't say that. [01:07:07] Speaker B: But it didn't say we wouldn't know him. [01:07:08] Speaker A: No, no, I didn't say so. [01:07:10] Speaker B: I mean. Or that we wouldn't remember who they were on earth. [01:07:13] Speaker A: Yeah. I just don't know. [01:07:16] Speaker B: Well, there's a part of me that says, I think this is me. [01:07:19] Speaker A: And again, this I would like to. [01:07:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's a part that says, you know, there is going to be a reuniting or we shall join them in the air, or we shall be with Christ always being all of us, those who have died, those who will be resurrected or raptured, first Thessalonians, that we shall be with the Lord always. So that tells me, okay, in other words, I'm going to be being in heaven. Heaven. Not just being that I am in this shell, but I'm going to be Ben Pierce. You're going to know who I am and remember the name, kid. [01:07:54] Speaker A: I guess it's like this, you know. Remember how the prophets had a hard time figuring out this salvation thing? Right? [01:08:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:03] Speaker A: They just couldn't understand it. Well, I'm at that point, how am I going to. I just don't know how to figure out what heaven's going to be like, how we're going to be. What are we going to remember? Well, once I get. [01:08:15] Speaker B: Will there be a few quasi side. [01:08:19] Speaker A: And something forward and I think it's going to be like the old prophets trying to understand salvation. It don't even make sense. [01:08:27] Speaker B: Well, it's just like the Pharisees. They didn't understand Christ, but they knew the scriptures better than anybody. [01:08:33] Speaker A: How can you know somebody that didn't make it to heaven and. Or remember somebody or can you remember that or remember what was going on earth and be happy? [01:08:43] Speaker B: Yeah. In other words, where's Bob? [01:08:45] Speaker A: It's beyond me, but I know it's going to work. I just can't, I just can't explain it. [01:08:52] Speaker C: Do you have any opinions on why the. Why we're not. Why there is no marriage in heaven. The basic obvious one is, well, we've got Jesus, we don't need. What else do we need? We don't need the helper anymore. We don't need whatever. But why. Any ideas of what that is? [01:09:09] Speaker B: The, the perfect answer would be because he's perfect. [01:09:14] Speaker C: I saw you going there. [01:09:16] Speaker B: Yes. [01:09:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I saw that as I was Finished. [01:09:18] Speaker B: No, I think it's one of. Yeah, that's it. [01:09:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:24] Speaker B: But I mean. But even though the marriage was established before the fall, so it's not part of the fall. [01:09:30] Speaker A: Expecting the fall. [01:09:31] Speaker B: Me, I think part of it is going to be. We're not going to be these human shells that we are, as you said earlier, we. We shall be like him. These earthly bodies. Yeah, man. It is made that, you know, marriage works for us as humans. I mean, it's just a companionship. It's this, that and the other. I mean, when you look at why God. God gave Eve to Adam, he saw that it was not good for man to be alone. Everything was perfect. It was just not good for him to be alone. So he needed a helper. Needed someone we built for that relationship. We get to heaven, we're going to have different bodies. We're going to be different things or different. Not things. I hate to use that term, but we're going to be totally different than we are now. And since we're totally different than we are now, that need for that companionship, that need for a wife. Wife or a spouse, it's not going to be needed because like you said, Christ is there. Right. And we're not going to need it. And it's. And plus, you know, bring that in and brings in all kinds of problems. Well, he's got the transition. [01:10:41] Speaker C: Yeah, man. It's not good for man to be alone, but. And we won't be alone then because we'll be with Jesus. But technically we have. We have the Holy Spirit with us now. I don't guess we did have the Holy Spirit with us in Genesis. [01:10:55] Speaker A: I just didn't know about. [01:10:56] Speaker B: No, I mean, we did have the Holy Spirit with us. He was there, of course, but. But I mean, as far. And they didn't walk. I mean, God. Christ came or God came and walked with them during the day, but it wasn't with them 24 7. [01:11:08] Speaker A: It wasn't. Right. Well. [01:11:09] Speaker B: And you know, and that's. I mean, the only thing that. That wasn't good was that. [01:11:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:11:15] Speaker B: Wasn't that it was sinful or wrong. Yeah. [01:11:17] Speaker C: Just. [01:11:17] Speaker B: It could be better. And I hate to say better, but hey, he. He needs a companionship. He needs that person. [01:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:24] Speaker B: A help mate, so to speak. [01:11:25] Speaker A: I don't know how people talk to God in the Old Testament. I mean, they prayed and I don't know how God presented himself physically. There was no indwelling. I mean, at times. Yeah, well, at times for special events. [01:11:42] Speaker B: It wasn't A permanent dwelling. [01:11:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Or how God communicated to his people. I mean, I know it's through the prophet, prophets. [01:11:50] Speaker B: Through the prophets, through the law, through the writings. But, yeah, mostly I don't understand how. [01:11:55] Speaker A: He communicated them because I have God inside me. I have God communicating to me. I don't know how he communicated to the older people other than through the prophets and laws. [01:12:05] Speaker B: That's it. [01:12:06] Speaker A: And if that's the case, boy, you know, and they're conscious. I suppose I can see how they could get. How they got in such a mess else. I mean, it wasn't their fault. They just. Well, it was their fault, but it was just like not having the dwelling of the Holy Spirit inside of me. I could go on a lot of ways, and I just almost go. I have a lot of pity on them and that. And also I might have been just like. Like Israel. [01:12:38] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I. I would. I would almost take the flip side of that coin and say, well, yeah, I see what you're saying. Well, then what's our excuse? [01:12:45] Speaker B: Yeah, well, they laugh at us more than we laugh at them. [01:12:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:12:48] Speaker B: Because they could see the whole story. I'm not saying they see the story. [01:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:52] Speaker B: But if they could see the whole story, they would look at us and say, y' all have the. How much and what y' all been given. You know, here we were, we had the law and we had prophets, and we did the best we could. [01:13:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:13:04] Speaker B: Y' all sitting there laughing at us of how we turned. But y', all, y' all had. You. You knew. Knew You. You knew the Savior, you knew the cross, and you had the Holy Spirit. [01:13:14] Speaker C: We act like they were walking around with Bibles like we have. And how did you not know about this? [01:13:19] Speaker A: Oh, man, the Pharisees. Jesus said if Sodom and Gomorrah. [01:13:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:13:24] Speaker A: Were here, what, you know, today are and what. [01:13:27] Speaker B: What you're seeing in your midst, they. [01:13:29] Speaker A: Would have repented a long time ago. Yeah. I don't know if that was, like, it. Would they have or no. [01:13:35] Speaker B: I think he's saying they would have probably been more repentant than the Pharisees. [01:13:39] Speaker A: Maybe more repentant, maybe not repent. You know, all of them. [01:13:44] Speaker B: But I would say no City of Nimva repented. Pretty impressive. At least 150 years. Well, they existed for 150 years after that, Jonah went, and then Nahum is basically telling their doom is coming, and it did in 612. [01:14:01] Speaker A: And I guess, because my thought process is on that, if there's a way to get salvation. I would think Jesus would make a way if someone was going to repent. Because I really believe people that do not become Christians is because they don't want to. I don't think people are cast into hell because they had no opportunity. That don't excuse me from not spreading the gospel. See, I'm, I'm, I don't know. And I'm coming from the. More from Romans 1, 2, and 3. [01:14:39] Speaker B: I think you're coming from more fairness. [01:14:42] Speaker A: Well, that, I think that is fair. [01:14:44] Speaker B: Of what you're coming from the fairness doctrine. There's nothing fair about it. [01:14:49] Speaker A: No, I know. I, I don't say what I'm saying. If you, if you want to, you will see God. If you seek him, you will find him. [01:14:57] Speaker B: Right. [01:14:57] Speaker A: There is a turning, and I think there's a turn in everybody at some point in time, whether you, you believed in God. Everybody believed in God when they were born, according to Romans. [01:15:11] Speaker B: They know there's a God. [01:15:12] Speaker A: They know. Yes. Well, I take that as a believing there is a God. [01:15:16] Speaker B: Okay, okay. [01:15:17] Speaker A: And at some point you had decided, well, I'm going to go ahead and be an atheist. I'm going to go ahead and believe in this. But at some point in time, you knew there was a higher being. And I'm saying you're the one that sent your own self. I don't think other people send people to hell. I think they send their own self. [01:15:37] Speaker B: No, I agree with that. I don't think it's God sending them to hell per se. [01:15:41] Speaker A: I don't understand. [01:15:42] Speaker B: They made decisions, but at the same time, unless the Spirit draws them. And I think that's where I'm getting at is, you know, I think I would have to work on that, what you just said for a while to really unpack it. [01:15:56] Speaker A: I'm just saying this is something that I think. I'm not saying that I actually believe it, but it just makes sense to me. It's not a new doctrine that I'm trying to come up with. It just makes sense. Knowing how much God loves people, knowing that he's not willing that anybody should perish. That's one reason why he hadn't come back yet, because it's been 2,000 years. And just knowing his love and mercy, knowing that he doesn't condemn people to hell, they condemn themselves. Right. I would think if you wanted a chance, if you really sought for a chance, and I've heard this on mission fields, but mission person missionaries shows up and some guys were saying, well, we've been praying about. We've been waiting for God. Someone who's going to send you somehow. Someone. So I think everybody has opportunity now. It's not the opportunity that I've had. [01:16:46] Speaker B: Right, no, I agree. [01:16:47] Speaker A: It's not the opportunity that you had. And they're not going to be as. As much responsive as responsible for the opportunity. I'll probably be more responsible because I know more. [01:16:59] Speaker B: But who. Much is given much. [01:17:00] Speaker A: Yes. As much as required. And then. So there. I believe there's levels in hell. I just don't understand. [01:17:08] Speaker B: Easy, easy. I'm not, I'm not. I'm not sure I'm more than there either. [01:17:11] Speaker A: I mean, I just don't know. I think there's levels because some will burn hotter than the other, but it doesn't matter to me. [01:17:19] Speaker B: You got extra crispy and not as crispy. [01:17:21] Speaker A: Well, that was actually inches. That was actually something. No difference to me. It's hot. [01:17:26] Speaker C: That was something that actually came up in one. I think it was in the pastor's response video to the Kirk Cameron thing is that there are places where Jesus says it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of Judgment than you. I mean, there were some. [01:17:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:38] Speaker C: Some points that he, He. [01:17:39] Speaker A: It. [01:17:39] Speaker C: It sounded like just like there is a. [01:17:42] Speaker A: A. [01:17:43] Speaker C: And I'll. I'll want to make sure I point out his final point also. But he said just like there are, you know, there's. Everything's not exactly. Everybody doesn't have the exact same experience in heaven. Everybody has the exact same experience in hell either. And he said at the end of the day, whether we understand it or not, what we do have to know is that whatever it is, God is just. And it will be just. [01:18:03] Speaker B: Hell is real. Real. And you don't want it. Right. And I think one of the things. Two things. And this is. This is the thing that I think when we had this discussion is, you know, you also gotta take into account God's holiness. And that's the whole gist of it. [01:18:18] Speaker A: It's more than I can comprehend. [01:18:19] Speaker B: And it's more than just his grace and his mercy. Yes, but his holiness demands that sin carries a price. [01:18:26] Speaker A: Where'd you say that? [01:18:27] Speaker B: Eternal life. It's eternal life or it's eternal death? The wages of sin is eternal death. Now, whether or not. [01:18:34] Speaker C: Not. [01:18:34] Speaker B: You know, I, I don't know that I can get into the levels because I hadn't seen it. [01:18:39] Speaker A: I haven't either. [01:18:39] Speaker B: In here. Now, again, it's more tolerable in the day of judgment, meaning. Oh, that's going to be a strict judgment. But does that mean. I would say. I would say punishment is punishment. [01:18:50] Speaker A: As far as I agree. And I. I don't have. I don't have enough to. To make doctrine. Yeah. It's just something that I think about. [01:18:58] Speaker B: Right. No, I do, too. And I think, too. You stop and think about it, that we. We tend to humanize it like we've done it before. Okay. He's not about a sinner as Hitler. And unless Hitler repented, Hitler needs to be in the 10th level. [01:19:16] Speaker C: Right. [01:19:16] Speaker B: We do that. But I don't know that sin is sin. [01:19:20] Speaker A: Well, God's so far off the charts. [01:19:22] Speaker B: Exactly. His Holiness. You break one, you've broken the whole. [01:19:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [01:19:26] Speaker B: So I'm just as guilty as Hitler or Charles Manson or any Jeffrey Dahmer anybody want to name. [01:19:32] Speaker A: That is terrible. And it is. [01:19:34] Speaker B: It's depraved. [01:19:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And. But God's so far off the charts. He's so holy. [01:19:40] Speaker B: Well, he's so holy that I might as well be a. [01:19:43] Speaker A: You might as well just go ahead and do that. Not just tell the white holy. Just go ahead, do it all. [01:19:48] Speaker C: Just all. [01:19:48] Speaker A: Yeah. So we don't get that. We don't get. [01:19:52] Speaker B: We might as well go ahead and do it. [01:19:57] Speaker A: We just don't realize how simple. I don't realize how simple I am, but I know how simple you are. [01:20:04] Speaker B: That's right. Or somebody else. I definitely. Well, Hitler or anybody else give a. [01:20:09] Speaker A: Testimony of myself because I don't like, you know, people. I compare that. Well, I'm as bad as him, you know, there's hope for me. [01:20:22] Speaker C: Definitely. Yeah. [01:20:23] Speaker A: So we do a comparing game. I just see a lot of people give testimony, and I think. [01:20:28] Speaker B: I think even we do that. As far as. We bring that in when we begin to discuss what we're discussing now. [01:20:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:20:34] Speaker B: As far as punishment, as far as reward, as far as, as, you know, this, that, and other. And again, there are rewards, there are certain crowns, but we're all going to end up tossing them at Jesus's feet. [01:20:43] Speaker C: Right. [01:20:44] Speaker B: And whether or not it means there's levels or a hotter section than the other section, I don't know that I want to go there just because I don't know that I've seen it, other than I'm inferring from Jesus saying they incur stricter judgment. Okay. Well, yes. What does that mean? [01:21:02] Speaker A: You can't make doctrine on it. You just can't, you know, Know. Yes. There Is I'm saying, that's right. [01:21:08] Speaker B: I can't do my doctrine. [01:21:09] Speaker A: I can't preach on it. Because I mean, you can, but it's not going to. It's not something that you could say, yeah, this is what happened. This is it. [01:21:17] Speaker B: If you play that way, then when you go to brethren, brethren don't let many among you be teachers. Why? Because they incur a stricter judgment. So in other words, the book of James warns, not everybody needs to be teaching because you're going to encourage stricter judgment. So does that mean that. Okay, I mean, I'm just play that out. If I don't have, if I teach the wrong stuff, my house in heaven is going to be two, two stories shorter than yours. [01:21:47] Speaker C: Well, let's think about what it can't be. If it doesn't mean that the level that the bar to get into heaven is moved because that's not something we can earn anyway, that's salvation. Okay, so then it either means that we're. I guess, yes, yes. Our house isn't going to be as big in heaven or our corner of hell is going to be hotter. Or it means, I just think it means we're going to get yelled at more before we go into one or the other. [01:22:10] Speaker B: I think you're going to be more scrutinized being that, hey, you, you were responsible for these people when you were a teacher and you're teaching some crazy, crazy stuff. And versus. Okay, you know, well, well, minus one. [01:22:26] Speaker A: Just do the best you can. [01:22:27] Speaker B: Well, I think it all goes back. [01:22:29] Speaker A: To do the best you can walking. [01:22:31] Speaker B: With the Lord, keeping your eyes fixed upon him, and teach what's in the word. And you know, because we can, we can think through and you know, and that's where again, let this shape your mind, let this shape your thing. [01:22:43] Speaker A: And we have thought through this whole conversation. Where, where are we at now? [01:22:47] Speaker B: Yep, back at the beginning. [01:22:50] Speaker A: We didn't solve anything. [01:22:51] Speaker B: Well, you changed your mind. [01:22:55] Speaker C: This is going to be a boys. This might be too poor. [01:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:58] Speaker A: It's just so much stuff in there that I like that we don't know. [01:23:03] Speaker B: That we don't know. [01:23:04] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's a really, really important thing to end on there is that we don't know because I think that that's where people can get themselves in a lot of trouble is by not acknowledging that they don't know and. [01:23:14] Speaker B: By reading into yes is what it means. [01:23:17] Speaker A: And that's why you have a lot of the domination. Why you have a lot. [01:23:19] Speaker B: And I think that's why God, in his infinite wisdom, gave us exactly what we needed to do. [01:23:25] Speaker A: Know. [01:23:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:23:26] Speaker B: Especially in dealing with salvation and how to walk, how to. How to live daily, how to please him, how to seek him. And then all the other stuff is kind of a. As you said, heaven to me is a. Hey, it's worth it. Paul says this momentary affliction that we have, it's going to be worth it, that we don't have to know all the answers and how it's going to work out and how big my house is going to be. This, that, and the other. All Jesus says I go to prepare a place. [01:23:54] Speaker C: All right. [01:23:54] Speaker B: Right. I know I got a place. [01:23:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:23:56] Speaker B: And I know he's good, so it's going to be good. I don't need to know, you know, is it going to have linoleum or is it going to have a marble floor? I don't care less. Yeah. I. All I care about is mine is secured in Christ. [01:24:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't like to talk about that one because I. I had read some things that. It's not mansions. It's not really rooms. [01:24:15] Speaker B: That's dwelling places. [01:24:17] Speaker A: Dwelling places around. Around the throne. Yep. [01:24:21] Speaker B: You can interpret that. That. That word in Greek can mean several different. [01:24:26] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's just, you know. But I mean, there's songs that have been written about mansions. I've got a mansion just over the hilltop. [01:24:36] Speaker B: Take you to Delta Dawn. Take you to that mansion in the sky. [01:24:39] Speaker A: And so. Yes. And what is it? Just build my mansion next door to Jesus. Tell the angels I'm coming home. [01:24:47] Speaker B: Is that right? And that's the one everybody thinks in Southern California gospel. [01:24:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:54] Speaker B: I remember that. Play that as our. Our outro. [01:24:56] Speaker C: Our outro, Little Silver. And. [01:25:01] Speaker B: Yeah, Delta dawn would be better. [01:25:04] Speaker A: So the main thing is, I think everybody's happy when they're there. [01:25:09] Speaker B: I don't know. There's some. Some people hard to please. [01:25:12] Speaker A: Well, if you can't please me. [01:25:15] Speaker B: Yeah, there's some very difficult people to please. Now, I'm gonna tell you that. Try being a pastor to him. [01:25:21] Speaker C: See, everybody's got his own SN Peanuts out here. [01:25:26] Speaker B: Hey, Kenny's going high tech. Got a computer and everything. [01:25:31] Speaker A: Have you seen the Second Gladiator? [01:25:34] Speaker B: I have not. I ain't seen the first one. [01:25:36] Speaker A: You have, which I. [01:25:37] Speaker B: It's shocking. That's looks like my kind of movie. [01:25:40] Speaker A: I reckon it does. [01:25:41] Speaker C: How was your ski trip? [01:25:42] Speaker B: It was wonderful, man. It was great. Everybody came down without any. Any sprains, any cast, any emergency room trips. So Everything went wonderful. One of them asked, why ain't you sober? I said, well, I didn't fall. I mean, that's how. That's how you hurt yourself, is to fall. I made one wrong turn on one of the paths and ended up on a blue and made it. I got about halfway down the hill and I said, this is a little too steep. I think I'm on a blue. Yeah. Made it to the bottom without falling. I said, one made that mistake again. One didn't know how to stop. She got to the bottom of the hill. She was flying. And just. We were telling her, pizza. [01:26:20] Speaker A: Pizza. [01:26:22] Speaker B: She did not hear pizza. She heard pretzel sticks, you know, straight. Straight as a string, son.